Getting Personal About Productivity with Theresa Ward

Brett Harned:                                          Hey, welcome back to Time Limit. My guest and topic for this episode are very relevant, not only to how a lot of us are managing our work day to day, but also for the fact that this Saturday, June 20th, is World Productivity Day. So you obviously guessed that today's topic is productivity. And I was really thankful to have a productivity expert, Theresa Ward, on the show to interview. In her work as a productivity and process consultant, Theresa helps teams to find better ways to work together and individually. She's clearly educated on productivity as she drops a number of book recommendations in the interview. But what I like most about this interview is how we cut to some really specific personal tactics that any of us could take to be more productive. Check it out.
                                                      Theresa Ward, thank you so much for joining me on Time Limit Today. How are you?

Theresa Ward:                                          Brett, I'm good. I'm good. How's your morning going?

Brett Harned:                                          Awesome. My morning is going. We had some tech issues, obviously, between the two of us and starting about 25 minutes late, completely my fault. But sometimes technology just doesn't care about your productivity.

Theresa Ward:                                          And we just have to embrace that reality and move forward with whatever happens. So yeah, we made it. Here we are.

Brett Harned:                                          Exactly. And I'm excited to talk about productivity. I think it's probably a topic that touches everyone at some point, right? Even when we were chatting, you mentioned your productivity over the weekend. It doesn't always have to do with work, but I thought maybe we would kind of take it from the top, so to speak. I would love for you to answer the simple question, what is productivity, or what does productivity mean to you?

Theresa Ward:                                          That's a trick question. I think it should be simple, whatever the definition is for you. But because I center my career around productivity, I feel it's a constantly evolving answer. And every time I read a book or listen to a great podcast, I'm constantly tweaking and reshaping what it means for me. When you think about the traditional definition of productivity, it's very factory oriented. You think about this mathematical quantitative equation of inputs and outputs. But I think a lot of us have realized today that is not a relevant or motivating definition. The root of the word productivity ... Okay, so Brett, let me ask you, what is the healthy fruit and vegetable section in the grocery store called?

Brett Harned:                                          Produce.

Theresa Ward:                                          The produce section. So the word productivity comes from this root of bearing fruit. And so that's how I try and think about it. When I get caught up in efficiency and factory and task-oriented mindset, I kind of pause and it's like, okay, am I making something beautiful and tasty and impactful for the world? And that is how I define and measure my own productivity. But I always also ask other people, when they ask me, "Well, what does a productivity consultant do? And what does productivity mean?" And I'm like, "Well, what does it mean to you?" Because I think it should be so personal.

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah. I agree. It is personal. For me, it's about how I feel when I'm getting things done. Because my mood and timing and all of that absolutely impacts my productivity, how much I'm actually getting done, and also the quality of what I'm getting done too.

Theresa Ward:                                          Yep. Absolutely. I think it's way more qualitative than quantitative in the age of knowledge workers, instead of your more traditional factory workers.

Brett Harned:                                          Yes. Yes. Productivity relates to everyone at all times, I guess, just in different ways, based on what you're doing. One of the things that I feel people bring up all the time is there's a certain time of the day when you're most productive. You hear that all the time. And I guess when I think about it, I'm typically most productive in the morning. Is that a worthwhile conversation? Should people think about their days and schedule their work for when they're "most productive"? Or is that a myth?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. No, I don't think it's a myth. If people who are listening are interested in diving really deep into that topic, there's a great book called When by Daniel Pink, and it's the secrets of scientific timing. And he argues loosely that everyone should kind of be a morning person, even if you consider yourself a night owl, which a lot of my more artistic and creative and musician friends are. They consider themselves night owls. There is this thing that happens whenever you wake up, that you are more mentally and emotionally stable and you should be able to tackle whatever the hardest and most strategic thing is for you first thing during the day. So that could be 8:00 AM for some of us. That could be 11:00 AM for some of us. There's also this really good Mark Twain quote, where he talks about eating the frog. Have you ever heard that term?

Brett Harned:                                          I've have heard that. Yeah.

Theresa Ward:                                          So if you eat the frog first thing in the day, the rest of the day is going to feel really easy. So for those of us who are chronic procrastinators, try and get in routine or a self-discipline habit where you get the hardest, most strategic, most urgent and important thing done first thing in the morning, and then everything else in the day just feels so much better, to go back to the emotional component you were talking about, instead of that constant sense of dread in your belly of like, "I'll have to do that thing later."

Brett Harned:                                          That makes sense. And I think that shifts too, right? I mean, especially right now. We're in the middle of this pandemic. We're in basically the third month of it, going on four months. A lot of people are being forced to work from home. And I think that alone has people thinking about productivity. I don't know if they're thinking about it in a different way. I know that it has certainly affected my productivity as someone who works from home already. My kids are now at home with me. My wife is a chemist, so she works in a lab and goes into the lab every day. So it's me and my two girls. And my productivity has been affected just by the fact that they are here, not to mention the fact that I'm helping with homework and making lunch in the middle of the day and answering questions and all of that stuff. So I'm wondering, just personally for you, has your productivity been affected by the pandemic? Have you heard anything in the industry or otherwise in the media about productivity and how people are adjusting during this time?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. Maybe it's who I subscribed to and who I follow on my social media feeds, but my feeds have been inundated with how to be more productive at home and how to set up your office. And there's a lot of really good idealistic tips in there. But when you have your shorter coworkers or your fuzzy four-legged coworkers who have just now become a part of your routine, it's not always ideal. So I think it's an exercise in ... Self-awareness is always where I tell people to start. You don't always have this chance to look in the mirror and be like, "Huh, I'm a lot more introverted than I thought I was." Or if you are really alone and craving that social interaction with your coworkers, "Huh, I'm a lot more extroverted than I thought I was." And let that self-awareness kind of funnel your adjustments and your routine, creating a lot more space and breaks or creating a lot more virtual happy hours if that's what you need.
                                                      For me personally, I think it's been an opportunity to get in a better morning routine because I'm not rushing off to be somewhere for a client. So it's a chance to really take more time to journal, meditate, go for a walk. Instead of my usual, got to blow dry my hair and put on real pants, deal with Atlanta traffic. So that's been nice. But also personally it is a struggle for me. And it's part of the reason why I center my career around this topic. But I always default to busy feeling safe. And so if I'm not busy during the day, I tend to get nervous. So that's been a big thing for me during this time is am I just filling up my day and filling out my calendar because I'm kind of afraid of stillness? So maybe there's some people listening who have that challenge too, but that's just something that I've been personally forced to look in the mirror and wrestle with during this time.

Brett Harned:                                          So do you think in some way that busy equals productive in your brain, somehow?

Theresa Ward:                                          I think it used to, and I'm actually trying to evolve past that. In the same way that there's this spectrum of introvertedness and extrovertedness, there's a spectrum of task-oriented and relationship-oriented. And I know that I tend to be a more task-oriented person, where checklists feel so good versus strict conversations and lunches and chats by the water cooler feeling good. So I have to keep that in check, because I will get too much into the mode of checklists and busy work and I won't pay attention to those bigger bearing fruit kinds of elements of productivity, like am I leaning into big picture, strategic, visionary stuff? And am I really deepening good relationships with personal and professional contacts? So I'm trying to stay away from the concept of busy being productive.

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I think there's something to this idea that being connected to your surroundings and the people around you contributes to your overall positive outlook, which would impact your productivity, right? If you're happy and content as an individual, that's going to make it easier for you to basically get the things done that are in your to-do list.

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. Obviously, I'm not a life coach, but when you think about this concept of productivity outside of just your work and just your career, as all those things are blending with us all staying home lately, you have these buckets of, "Oh, okay, am I productive in mental and physical health? Am I productive in my spiritual and personal growth areas? Am I productive with my family and friends?" Do you know who Ray Dalio is?

Brett Harned:                                          I do not.

Theresa Ward:                                          He's a business author, researcher, coach. He wrote a book called Principles that's really good, famous, recommended. And he has this quote about productivity being the most important thing in your life. And as a productivity consultant, I read that and I was like, "Check yourself, Ray." But if you do think about it as the things that are important connected to your purpose, the things that impact your life, not just your job, then yeah, I can get on board with that statement. So you have to balance all of those buckets, personally and professionally.

Brett Harned:                                          Absolutely. I think one of the things that we kind of talked about briefly prior to this interview is deep work. And one of the things I said in an email to you is that it's hard to find focus when there's a lot going on, and when there's a lot going on, not just in your office, but outside of it too. So we've been focusing on ... We've been talking about that balance between your personal life and your work life. And I'd to get into more of the kind of work life a little bit, and talk a little bit about deep work. And maybe you could kind of explain what deep work is to our listeners. But I guess when I think of deep work and I think of our listeners on Time Limit, they're mostly managers, project managers, people in business. So that deep work could be working on a plan, working through an estimate or a budget or staffing plans, things that require attention. Do you have any tips or thoughts around deep work and what is productive? What are best ways to approach it?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. So deep work is a term that Cal Newport coined. In case you can't tell, I read a lot of books. Read his book. It's about this concept of minimizing distractions. And that can be everything from shutting down your social media or your notification pings, to saying no to big opportunities and social events. So he talks about really getting into the flow. And for project managers, I think what they're really good at, especially in managing teams and other people, is these estimates of how long things really take. So you have to do that for yourself as well as other people. I kind of know that in my work, there are things that take 10 minutes, like writing a good email. There are things that take 45 minutes. There are certain things where a half hour is just not enough time, so I have to block at least 45 minutes on my calendar.
                                                      And then there are things that are going to take two hours or maybe more. So I try and block my calendar in those kinds of chunks, depending on the task. And if something's going to take an hour and a half and you have a half hour left over, one of the things Cal Newport says is like, "Just stare out the window for that half hour." And the rest of us are kind of, "Cal, are you crazy? Who has that kind of time?"

Brett Harned:                                          Basically saying, "Give your brain some space. If you're done, just chill"?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah, because what that can do is allow you to stimulate more creativity. We can't really be creative unless we're kind of bored. So it gives your brain that practice and that elasticity of being more creative and more strategic. So if you have the opportunity to block your calendar in those types of chunks, that's a great way to focus. Tell your team... Sign off of Slack or close your inbox and tell your team, "Hey, I'm going to work on this thing. I'll be back in 45 minutes. I'll be back in two hours." Some of us have more control over that than others. I totally understand.
                                                      But I think it's really outlining, what is your work? As a project manager, you have to know that there is work other than checking and responding to emails or setting up and attending meetings. So I think that's probably different depending on each team, each industry, each individual. But I want everyone to know, your work is not answering emails and going to meetings. So if you think that's what it is, you got to take some reflection time to ...

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah. Time to re-evaluate. I totally agree. It's interesting because I do think the project manager role specifically ... And you could even make the case for even just a general kind of management role. It's really hard to work without distractions, right? If you're working on a set of projects with a set of different stakeholders, you're basically open to getting a call, email, text, whatever, from them at any point in the day, whether you're working in-house or for an agency. No matter what, it's hard to not be distracted by things as a project manager. And what I found in my career as a PM was that when I really had to get things done, when I really had to focus on getting a plan done or working through my workload planning or resource planning, I would just shut everything off.
                                                      I would probably leave my desk area, so if people did come to hunt me down, they couldn't find me. And I would hole up in a conference room or a phone booth area, or even just a common area and put headphones on. That's a sign that you're busy and you should not be interrupted. But it's hard, because how much time do you have to give yourself to actually focus deeply on work? I like this idea, you give yourself a certain amount of time. So let's say I give myself an hour. Then I get the thing done in 30 minutes. Then I have 30 minutes to think about that thing or how I might do that thing differently. Is that kind of the idea of the brain space, giving yourself that extra time?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. So since we're all in probably our "home office," right now, and there isn't a chance to move to a phone booth or move to a conference room, I would recommend doing a thing that helps you mentally step into an intentional workspace. So that might mean you stand up and stretch or you put a ball cap on, or you light a candle in the room. You do something physical that's like, okay, I am working on this thing now, something other than just closing boxes on your screen. I mean, that could be as silly as changing colors on the pen that you're using. But something that allows you to mentally step into that space. And then there's this thing called the Pomodoro technique where you just set a timer.
                                                      For me, it's developing PowerPoint presentations. It always takes me longer than I think it's going to. So three hours, right? I don't want to do a PowerPoint presentation for three hours. So I set the timer for 25 minutes. And after 25 minute timer goes off, wherever I am, I stretch, I take a break, I get some water, I get a snack. And then I sit back down and set the timer for 25 minutes again. Because 25 minutes feels a lot less scary than three hours. And if I'm really burnt out after 25 minutes, then okay, I'll stop. And I'll just intentionally go do something else instead. But usually you're on a roll, and once you get into it ... Getting into it is the scariest part, but once you're into it, it's nice.
                                                      But yeah, I think the other thing, based on what you mentioned, is if you're a project manager and you want to not only get your own stuff done, but help other people get stuff done on time, lead by example. And leading by example is telling everyone on Slack or whatever your chat tool is, "Hey guys, I'm going to step away for 45 minutes. If anything's urgent, call me." Because that's the kind of work you want them to do. Right?

Brett Harned:                                          Right.

Theresa Ward:                                          Even when it's hard, if one person starts that snowball effect, then you can kind of start to see a culture shift if you're good at that routine.

Brett Harned:                                          It's funny while you were talking about that 25 minute rule, I'm finding that I'm actually doing that myself, but in more of an unintentional way. So in my office, I have my record player. I don't do this every day, but when I'm writing or I'm doing something where I need focus, I will put on a record and then I have to take a break every time I flip the record.

Theresa Ward:                                          Oh, so good, yes.

Brett Harned:                                          Do you know what I mean?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yes.

Brett Harned:                                          Even if it's just a couple of minutes, my brain switches. I'm either flipping the record or picking out something new, and it just helps me feel like, okay, I'm getting work done in short bursts.

Theresa Ward:                                          What I-

Brett Harned:                                          I'm sorry.

Theresa Ward:                                          Oh, I was just going to say, what I love about that is how analog it is. it's such a throwback to ... Not everything has to be digital. That's great. Sorry, go ahead.

Brett Harned:                                          Absolutely. No, I think the problem with it for me is that no matter what I do, no matter how much I try to focus, if I've shut down any possibility of a distraction ... A lot of times I'll get up and away from my computer and take a notebook or I'll put headphones in. Whatever I do, my brain always wanders off. It's when I'm working. It's when I'm meditating, working out. No matter what I do, my brain always wanders off. It happened last night. I was listening to a podcast and I had to rewind one section four times because I just start thinking about something else. So that's all to say, do you have any tips for staying focused?

Theresa Ward:                                          I would encourage you to reframe your mind wandering as a bad thing. Because David Allen, who wrote Getting Things Done, which is like the productivity Bible, he has this great quote that says, "Your mind is for having ideas, not holding them." And so it's like, what else, what else do you think your brain is good for besides coming up with like, "Ooh, you know what we should do tomorrow?" Or, "Ooh, I wonder what so-and-so is doing right now." That's not a bad thing, in my opinion. So how then can you embrace the fact that your mind is wandering and thinking of all of these things, instead of trying to be like, "No, shut up. Stop thinking about that"?
                                                      I keep a journal or a notebook next to me when I'm meditating, all the time. So I can kind of open one eye, write down the thought, and then it's released. I don't have to worry about, am I going to remember that thing? Or why am I wondering about my old dog from childhood right now? Just write it down and then you can come back to it later in a less analog, more digital way. Siri also helps me with this. If I'm on the treadmill or doing something, and I get really distracted then I tell Siri to remind me to think about it or write it down or do something with it later. So let your brain have the ideas and then document them and release them, and then you can come back to it when it's appropriate.

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah. I think that makes sense. I wonder how much of it for me personally is procrastination-

Theresa Ward:                                          Okay, tell me more.

Brett Harned:                                          And not to make this all about me, but I-

Theresa Ward:                                          You're a good case study, Brett.

Brett Harned:                                          That's scary. I think when it comes to ... Sometimes the work that you're doing is just hard, right? And sometimes it just feels like, "I don't want to do this right now," or there is a challenge that you need to think through and you don't have the energy to do it. You're just not motivated to do it. And sometimes you kind of have to reconnect yourself to that thing in some way. And I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but I'm wondering if sometimes it comes down to motivation or if there are ways to motivate yourself to be more productive.

Theresa Ward:                                          If I claimed right now, "No, I never struggled with procrastination," your listeners would all be like, "Yeah, right bye."

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah, right.

Theresa Ward:                                          No, I'm very, very human. And I'm constantly struggling with procrastination because we never feel neutral about tasks. There are tasks we love to do, and there are tasks that we hate to do. We always emotionally feel some way about a task. But if you know ... Again, kind of that eat the frog. That's gross, right? Who wants to do that? But if you know that's the thing that you're more likely to procrastinate on, how can you break it down into smaller tasks? So people always have this thing on their to do list that's like the garage, right? Or the basement. And it's this big project that you want to reorganize it, or you want to paint it, or you're going to clean it out. You're going to organize your tools or whatever. But the garage is not a task. It's not a verb. And project managers know this, right?
                                                      Your activities have to start with an action word. So instead of the garage, it might be sweep the floor, sort the tools, throw away the paint cans. So I think breaking down the big, ugly task into smaller bite-sized chunks and reminding yourself you don't have to do them all at once, can sometimes help with procrastination.

Brett Harned:                                          I love that. That totally relates back to planning and project management.

Theresa Ward:                                          Of course.

Brett Harned:                                          One of the things that I always recommend when I'm teaching about planning is doing a work breakdown structure, taking one giant task and breaking it down into a bunch of sub-tasks so it helps you to estimate and get things done in a way that is actually productive. So that makes a ton of sense to me.

Theresa Ward:                                          And as far as your question about motivation, this kind of goes back to that self-awareness thing, because we are all motivated by different things. So choose appropriately-sized rewards for those tasks and sub-tasks, right? So a reward might be like, "I'm going to have a Hershey's kiss. I'm going to treat myself to this small piece of candy after I finish this PowerPoint slide or after I send these series of emails or whatever it might be." And then after you get something larger done, again, maybe because you're at home, you're like, "Oh, I'm going to take a bubble bath or I'm going to have a glass of wine," you're just ... So factoring in those rewards of giving yourself what you're craving, and that might be food, drink, a walk, a social interaction, watching five minutes of puppy videos on YouTube, whatever the thing is that makes you feel good, give it to yourself in increments. Just make sure it's appropriately-sized so you're not like, "Wow. I sent an email. Time for a new pair of shoes."

Brett Harned:                                          Too funny. I agree with that. I think part of me, the motivation is flipping the record. Sometimes it's going outside for a walk. Having that thing in the back of your mind, I think, helps you to ... It can help you get through your day in a lot of cases, too. I think the other thing that I wanted to touch on is stress, because stress can impact your productivity. And I'm sure we've all been in places where we're just so stressed out, work piling up, things happening at home, just things happening in life in general, and not being able to focus because you know that there are things that you could or should be paying attention to. I don't know if I'm kind of nailing this at all, but I'm curious, what are your thoughts on stress and how it can kind of impact your ability to focus and productivity, really?

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. Well, there's the good stress and the bad stress, right? So Kelly McGonigal has some really good talks and I think a couple audio books about harnessing stress as a motivator. When you feel your heart race, or you're getting a little stressed out, you are pumping adrenaline into your system. So all that signals is that something matters to you and you're concerned about the results. So is there a way that you can reframe stress instead of trying to avoid it, to be like, "Okay, this is my this is my adrenaline. This is the thing that's going to motivate me to get something done." But then of course, there's that tipping point. And I think we've all experienced that during this global crisis in different waves. So I think it's, again, kind of going back to self-awareness. What are triggers? And then communicating with your team on what you need. I think there's this, I don't know, underlying ... Especially for project managers, we're not the ones who ask for help. We're the ones who give help, or we're the ones who are always sort of pushing and nudging and driving and organizing.
                                                      And sometimes you just need to give yourself the permission to say, "Hey guys, I need a day off," or, "I really need your help on this." Or, "Hey, Bob, when you don't respond to my emails or my Slack messages, I notice that it triggers a lot of stress for me and I can't get things done. How might we work on that together?" So, yeah, we talked about all of that good stuff about listening to music, going for a walk, meditating, doing all of those good things, but also don't be afraid to lean on your team and ask for help.

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah. I think that's so important. I think as PMs, we kind of tend to just hold that stress in because we don't want to be seen as weak. We want to be seen as a leader because in so many other places, we're either perceived as being weak or powerless. So hanging onto that power in some way feels important. But I don't think it is. I think you're right. I think you have to be vulnerable and you have to be able to say, "Hey, this thing is just not working. It's stressing me out. It's stressing the team out. We need to solve this together." The stress shouldn't be on the PM completely. And I think when you share that stress or maybe just call it responsibility or accountability, then it makes the work a little bit easier to get done.

Theresa Ward:                                          That is the goal. And if you can kind of get out of that lizard brain mode where you're just kind of freaking out about everything, take a deep breath and organize like, "Oh, okay. I don't have to do all these urgent things today. I'm just going to focus on what's important." And that might be again, kind of your mental health or your family, going back to that concept of productivity is really about bearing fruit and making big impacts on the world and what's important for you. So yeah, hopefully that helps.

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah. All right. So this has been a great conversation. It's such a relevant topic for everyone, and obviously very relevant to kind of the theme of our show being called Time Limit, inherent ideas around productivity. There are a lot of times when a project manager will be stretched for time between things like meetings, follow-ups, status reports, project plans, staffing plans. It can be tough to get that focus time. We kind of talked about that earlier, but when you're limited on that time, what can you do to make that time as productive as possible, or have you maybe kind of found ways to carve that time out? I'm just trying to see if you have any tips for people who are always stretched for time to harness that 30 minutes that you have to be really productive.

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well-

Brett Harned:                                          Like forced productivity.

Theresa Ward:                                          We could have a whole nother conversation about how people equate time with money. We use these words, like spending time and saving time and investing your time, but you can't really save time. You can't get it back. We all get the same amount of time in a day. So without getting too philosophical, let me give a tactical bit of advice, which is to batch your tasks. Because you don't want to get into writing and answering emails and planning for your kid's summer camp. Color-coding is kind of my nerdy way to think about it, but do all of your tasks that relate to one thing at a time. And then you won't have to do that brain switching, task switching, which is really when you have 30 minutes, you're like, "Ah, how many things can I get done?" It's like, "No, let's see if I can get three good things done on one specific topic." So batching helps me.

Brett Harned:                                          I like that. So be realistic. Batching is being realistic about what you can do, right?

Theresa Ward:                                          Sure, sure. And not trying to get in and out of multiple deep work times if you only have 10 or [crosstalk 00:34:19].

Brett Harned:                                          Yeah, context switching is tough.

Theresa Ward:                                          context switching. Thank you. That's [crosstalk 00:34:21]. That's what I was looking for.

Brett Harned:                                          So you actually told me that World Productivity Day is on June 20th. I laughed because that's a Saturday this year. What are you going to be doing to celebrate Productivity Day, World Productivity Day?

Theresa Ward:                                          Oh my gosh. That's such a good question. All right, in the honor of being vulnerable and transparent, I have known that World Productivity Day was June 20th since like January. And it's been on my list of important and not urgent things where I'm like, "Ooh, I should do something. I should plan a celebration or I should send gifts to all my clients or whatever." And it's the end of May and I haven't really figured out what that thing is going to be yet. So I just want everyone to know that productivity consultants do procrastinate. Yeah, we do the same thing that everybody else does.

Brett Harned:                                          You mean you're humans too? Well, I think to celebrate, I'm going to do nothing. I'm just going to do nothing.

Theresa Ward:                                          That's awesome.

Brett Harned:                                          Because why should you?

Theresa Ward:                                          That can be very productive and very impactful. And I hope you enjoy that time. And I would love for your listeners to shoot me a message on social media or something and let me know. I don't know. What should you do? What should we do?

Brett Harned:                                          Definitely.

Theresa Ward:                                          Everyone can share their individual celebrations.

Brett Harned:                                          And we're going to have your contact information, your site, the resources and books that you mentioned here on the Time Limit website. So if people want to get in touch, they absolutely will have a way through TeamGantt.

Theresa Ward:                                          Love it.

Brett Harned:                                          Well, thank you so much for joining me for Time Limit today. I really appreciate it. It's always fun talking to you.

Theresa Ward:                                          Yeah, it's been so fun. Thanks, Brett.

Brett Harned:                                          All right, folks. That's all for our interview with Theresa Ward. I hope that the many tips Theresa provided will help you in your quest to be more productive or to help get things done. Check out our show notes for further information on how to get in touch with Teresa and for links to the resources mentioned in the show itself. Come back for the next episode, where I'll have a discussion with an author of a new book all about change management. And in the meantime, if you could do me a favor, please give Time Limit a positive review and share it so we can keep the positive momentum going. Thanks a lot.